The Rediff Special
'You can't tackle the underworld in Mahatma Gandhi's avatar'
In the concluding part of his interview to Saamna, Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray said he feared nothing from gangster who turned politicians and let fly at the Congress. He also discounted claims that the Sena was losing support and predicted that terrible times are round the corner, with 1998 bringing with it anarchy and bloodshed. Excerpts from the interview:
Is your government stumbling aimlessly or is it being run by your remote control? Is the ruling party trying to give your ideas direction?
(Looking annoyed) I find this interesting; it surprises me. When I try to give direction to this stumbling government, people come down immediately on my remote control. If we don't take any action they say the government is inefficient, effete. Actually there is no difference between their 'high command' and our remote control. It's a new word I have coined for 'high command'.
What does this 'high command' do? Isn't if the same high command that controls different state governments from Delhi? What's my sin then? When the people of Maharashtra has entrusted confidence in us, don't we have any moral responsibility to wards them. And I'll take the responsibility if the government still dithers or stumbles.
What's your opinion about the law and order situation?
Excellent. This things (killings) will keep on happening. People will be killed due to personal feuds. I've always said this. Thakkar, Khatau, all these are personal feuds. They used the mafia for their own benefit; they were all hand-in-glove with each other. They were shot dead over payment problems. What can we do? How does law and order emerge here? This will keep on happening.
Don't such crimes happen in Delhi? Congresswallahs have no right to speak on this matter. One of their cronies roasted his wife like a tandoori chicken. And the other one pushed his wife in a lake infested with crocodiles. She was eaten away by the crocodiles. And on top of that he had guts to defend this ugly act. What about badminton ace Syed Modi? His murderers are Congress leaders in Delhi.
Dhawan's house was attacked, 132 people from Maharashtra were killed during Pawar's tenure. How many more of their sins shall I have to recount? Thirty five years of sin in Maharashtra and 50 years of sin in the nation.
How can police deal with the mafia gangs?
You can't tackle them in Mahatma Gandhi's avatar.
What's your opinion about encounters?
Nothing wrong in them. If these mafia gangs are out to topple the establishment and give an headache to the people, if these people don't care about the common man and carry out their killing games without any semblance of fear for the rule of law, why should we care for them? They are also killing people. Then why are you letting them free? People like Aurangzeb don't change even if they adorn the robes of a saint.
You seem to be unhappy with the chief minister. There are some cloak-and-dagger games going on in the cabinet.
Absolutely not. I summon him immediately if he makes mistakes. I talk to him on the phone. I'm not at all unhappy with the chief minister.
Are you are searching for an alternative?
There is no question of looking for an alternative. Today I don't find myself in a bad position on this matter. And he should not force it on me. Our relationship is gung-ho. Though many people are trying to play spoilsport.
What is the future of the Congress in Maharashtra?
It's no more a force to reckon with. The Maratha community is no longer a Congress bastion. We too have Marathas in the Shiv Sena. But the Marathas still respect the Congress. Only their leaders have never looked up to the Congress. That's their limitation...
What if dalits, Muslims and the Congress come together, tomorrow, on the basis of caste?
They had an alliance earlier, also. It won't be the first time...
Even Mulayam Singh is with them...
Mulayam Singh had come recently. Before that, the Muslims were largely with the Congress. Earlier, a faction of the Republican Party of India (Athavale) was with them. They have unitedly formed an opposition against us. But they are repenting it today. The Muslims are coming to us now. The neo-Buddhists have understood the folly of aligning with the Congress. They have to contend with remaining in hell with the Congress.
Naval Tata had proposed a scheme when Vasantrao Naik was the CM. He was prepared to construct decent houses for slum-dwellers. Vasantrao said, "No, no, don't do that." Mr Tata asked, "Why? We will give them better life, better things." But Vasantrao replied, "No, no, you will create a problem for us." Now tell me, what problem would it have created? Everybody will praise and support Naval Tata if he does it. Naval Tata would snatch away their vote banks, and the Congress would be in a fix. I've been studying this politics from its beginning. I don't find this a problem.
Those donkeys who call us castiest or fundamentalist don't understand that whoever resides in those slums, irrespective of the caste or religion will benefit. We are not into the business of forcing out neo-Buddhists, dalits or Muslims. Everybody will get free housing. We will provide free housing to those who have been domiciles of Maharashtra for the last 15 years.
What is the most challenging task in front of you today?
What?
Pawar, Lakhoba (Bhujbal) or Gawli?
None. I don't consider any of them as a challenge to the Shiv Sena.
It is serious that a gangster mobilises a massive morcha against the government...
Dalits, who were hurt because of the Ramabai Nagar incident participated on a large scale. Trade unions under their control entered themorcha. The residents from Kandivli who were evicted by the government for illegal occupancy joined themorcha. And how many people did they buy? You cannot organise a party on the support of these hired people and sustain it over a long time. Such people cannot challenge my party. Absolutely not.
The very gangsters who oppose you now, were once patronised by you for political reasons.
No, I've never patronised these people. I've always been sincere and honest in my life. I'm not ashamed to assert that these very people were Shiv sainiks earlier. What can I do if they can't accept some facts today. So I will never oppose the truth and try to hide it. Let them be Rama Naik, Babu Reshim or this Gawli. They were all Shiv sainiks.
Why did they desert you, then?
Gawli deserted me a few months ago. He used to send me letters from prison... You can say that we had relations. But I don't owe a penny to anybody nor does he... I treated them as my Shiv sainiks. They are misled. Maybe. But what can I do? They became free when they were misled.
Your relations soured recently. And.....
Yes. Munde, myself and Mohan Rawale. We were discussing it... Rawale and Munde were sitting face-to-face. Rawale wanted to know why the deputy CM was not giving Gawli security. I told Munde to act like a responsible home minister and take a decision. I would not interfere, whatever his decision. This was not my problem.
Finally, Munde said, "How is that possible? People will criticise us severely. They will ask us why we can't give protection to Dawood then? Why not Chhota Rajan? Then what? It will be a mockery of the law and the government. Under any circumstances, we can't give protection to Gawli."
He became my enemy when Rawale delivered this decision to Gawli. This man went to prison under the Congress regime and now he is fighting against me. Let him do whatever he wants to. But he should remember that if he is alive today it is due to Bal Thackeray. I'd announced this publicly at Shivaji Park. Don't dare touch our Marathi people! They were not killing Dawood's men. I said this. I've got the cassettes. I don't want to discuss it anyway, and we don't face any challenge.
The terrorism of the Communists was quelled by Shiv Sena's terrorism. Is this a repeat?
Nobody told us to quell the Communists's terrorism. It's an allegation. It was alleged that S K Patil and Vasantrao Naik asked us to do it. I was firmly opposed to Communists. They were strong then and were trying to wipe out our roots. It was tit-for-tat.
Kind courtesy: Saamna. Translated by Prasanna D Zorey.
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