The Rediff Interview/Raj Thackeray

'When people are lined up and killed in Bihar, V P Singh does not go there but he comes here to meet Sheila Kini!'

Raj Thackeray has proved his point. After months of sustained investigations, the CBI has finally cleared him of any involvement in the death of Ramesh Kini and the Thackeray family, which has all along denied these charges, now stands vindicated. Will this bring the driven doppelganger back into the limelight, as the inheritor of his uncle’s political legacy? Or will he continue to shy away from the headlines and focus on the Shiv Udyog Sena, the Shiv Sena’s ambitious project to provide jobs to young unemployed Maharashtrians? After a long time, Raj Thackeray airs his views again, in an exclusive interview to Pritish Nandy. As aggressively as usual.

How does it feel to be cleared by the CBI after months of sustained investigation?

I knew this would happen. I am not surprised. From when this whole thing began, not with the CBI but with the CID, I was aware that all these allegations were false. I did not know this man, I had never met him in my life. How could I be involved in his death? But I was keen to clear my name. So I said: Go where you want. To the CID, the CBI, wherever you want. I have nothing to fear. In fact, if you remember, I went to the investigators to answer all the charges. I did not ask them to come here, as others have always done.

Do you think there was a larger political conspiracy behind the charges?

Of course. What else is there in the case? When these charges were made, the newspapers and the Opposition made such a huge noise about it. Do you remember the size of the headlines, the amount of coverage they gave it? Now, after the results of the investigations have been announced, look at the way they are presenting it!

The Opposition I can handle. But I did not expect the newspapers to behave like this. The allegations were loudly proclaimed through banner headlines on the front page. But now that I have been cleared of all charges, they have reported it in small type, somewhere inside. Like a film ad. This is not fair!

Maybe they don’t believe the CBI or the CID. Maybe they think you exerted political pressure to escape the dragnet.

The Union government is in the hands of the third force, whom we are opposing in Maharashtra. They are supported by the Congress, who were the ones who made the allegations against me in the first place. On top of this, you expect people to believe that I manipulated the outcome of the investigations! Even a fool will realise that this charge -- like the first one of murder -- is stupid and outrageous. If any manipulation was possible, these people would have done it themselves.

Don’t you now think you should keep better company? After all, all the people who have now been charged in this case, are close to you. And that is perhaps why the needle of suspicion pointed in your direction….

I am in politics. Here, it is not possible to know everyone around you. How can I take responsibility for all those who support me or work for me or simply hang around me? You are here interviewing me, sitting in my home. But if you go out after this interview and do something wrong, how can I be held responsible for it?

What do you feel about the people who were finally charged for abetting the suicide of Ramesh Kini? Do you think they are guilty? Or are they being victimised simply because they are known to be close to you?

First of all, this is now a court case. So I do not want to say anything about it.

Yet I would like to ask one simple question. If this was not a murder, what was it? A suicide? Fine. But what are the findings that have led to the conclusion that this is suicide? These have not yet been published anywhere yet. So I have still not understood the exact nature of the case and how the chargesheets are being filed. But that is another matter….

How well do you know the people charged?

I know them very well. Both of them are excellent young people. If you go in the neighbourhood and ask anyone about them, you will find out what they have to say. My own impression is that they are not capable of even killing an ant, let alone a human being. But why rely on me? Ask their neighbours. Ask people who know them better than me.

Why has the driven doppelganger suddenly adopted such a low profile in recent months?

It is not a question of low profile. It is the monsoons. I like lying low during the rains. I cannot travel during these months and that is why I stay at home. Once the monsoons are over, watch me. I will start my campaign again.

What campaign? For the Shiv Udyog Sena?

Yes, for the SUS. Also for the party. I have to go to many places. But it is raining so much that I cannot do anything, go anywhere. I am waiting for the skies to clear up.

Do you see the Shiv Sena’s popular appeal waning in Maharashtra?

In what sense?

In the sense that the Sena is losing out among its traditional support base…

If you see the outcome of all the recent elections, you will know this is untrue. The Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation would not have voted us back. Nor Nasik and Amravati. There is no question of us having lost public support, even marginally. In fact, if you ask me, our support base is growing by the day. We are actually gaining in strength and political power. If there is an election today, you will know where we stand.

Is your government losing control over law and order in Bombay? Everyone is voicing their anxiety over this….

When there was a Congress government in Maharashtra, no one bothered about law and order. The press chaps would write about it once in a while and then keep quiet. But ever since we came to power, there is a sustained campaign on in the press—saying that law and order is collapsing. This is an unnecessary issue being highlighted by our political critics.

Look at the number of riots that took place during the Congress regime. During our time, there was only one small riot -- at Pen, Panvel during the Ganapati festival -- and that too was instantly brought under control. Within a day. After that, where are the riots? Even the recent trouble that erupted over the desecration of the Ambedkar statue had nothing to do with us. Balasaheb issued a fiat that no Shiv Sainik should get involved in this problem. So whatever happened, we had no role in it. That much is clear.

Secondly, let’s look at the murders. How they are happening and why is a matter for the police to investigate but, as far as the common people of Bombay are concerned, they have no problems. So this is not a law and order issue. The common man is moving around freely, going anywhere he wants, doing whatever he wants. So where is the law and order crisis? Those who are complaining about Bombay’s law and order should be sent to UP and Bihar—only then they will realise how safe and secure Bombay is.

Where do you see the rise of the Akhil Bharatiya Sena leading? Why are bodies like this coming up in Bombay?

Anyone can start a political party. It means nothing. My only request is: Do not compare us with the ABS. We have a political base, we have a following. Above all, we have Balasaheb. It is wrong to compare us with others just because they call themselves a Sena.

Comparisons are made because Arun Gawli once enjoyed the support of your Sena….

What support? Prove it.

The general belief is that Gawli was once propped up by your Sena as a counterpoint to the other Muslim-led gangster groups of Bombay….

Yes, basically Arun is a Shiv Sainik.

That is exactly what I am saying…

But this does not mean that we were taking his support. We were not taking anything from him. He himself declared that he was a Shiv Sainik. That is his prerogative. What can we do if someone declares himself as a Shiv Sainik?

In fact, if you ask me, it is those who oppose us who have gone and poisoned his mind against us. This is all a game of the Opposition. There is nothing else to it. Nor has Balasaheb ever said anything. It is just that people have gone and told Arun things that he wanted to hear. Nothing more. The real problem is that these Congress chaps have lost their government, their power, their chairs. They have nothing else to do. So they are using all the dirty tricks they know to embarrass us. The devious brains they once used for governance -- and to stay in power -- are now being used against us, to create problems for us. But we know exactly how to cope with them…

Do you see an escalation of violence between the ABS and the Shiv Sena?

No.

Do you see a further increase in gangland crimes?

Not at all.

No more crimes against showbiz personalities?

Well, as Mendonca saheb has said, if anyone threatens you or tries to extort you, tell us. If you don’t tell us, in a city like this with a population of over 10 million, how will the police ever come to know what is happening, who is related to whom, what are the transactions taking place? How can the police find out unless there is a specific complaint?

This is the same Mendonca who interrogated you in the alleged Kini murder case?

Yes. Now he is the commissioner of police.

Do you think all the showbiz guys who were killed or are being threatened are involved in business with the underworld?

Frankly, I do not know what their involvement is, what their transactions are. I think you better ask Mendonca saheb this question…

Why do you see the rise in crime in Bombay? Because of political reasons?

This is not unique to Bombay. Look at New York and the number of crimes out there. Every big city has crime. Bombay is the biggest city of India. So, naturally, all crimes in Bombay get banner headlines. But, arre bhai, crimes are occurring all over India. If you go to UP and Bihar, everyone is moving around with fire arms. This does not surprise you. But because Bombay is a big city, a rich city, a cosmopolitan city it gets all the attention…

Is your government taking steps to fight crime on the streets?

Of course, we are.

What kind of steps? Apart, of course, from changing police commissioners….

I do not know exactly what steps are being taken. I am not in the government, remember? But I know we are doing something about it.

Is your government putting pressure on the police to take more aggressive steps?

Well, Balasaheb has told them to fight back. At any cost.

Do you see increasing criminalisation of politics here, after the rise of Arun Gawli?

Like the press went after Diana, they are going after us. It is the media that has decided to grow certain people. While this is their problem, they must ask themselves if this is the right thing to do. After all, the rise and fall in crime is a factor of whom you decide to give importance to. When five of our MLAs were killed, no one raised their voice, no one protested. When the bomb blasts took place….

Were these not crimes? Why is everyone suddenly waking up to murders in Bombay? Is it something new? Is it only after we came to power? No. If you look at the ratios, you will find that the crime rate has in fact sharply deteriorated after we came to power….

But your former police commissioner Subash Malhotra said exactly the opposite in an interview to me three weeks back. He said crime is rising everywhere, including Bombay, and this is, in fact, inevitable...

This is not true. We are being selective with regard to facts. When people are lined up and killed in Bihar, V P Singh does not go there but he comes here to meet Sheila Kini! This is what upsets me.

EARLIER INTERVIEW:
Varsha Bhosle interviews Raj Thackeray

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