The Rediff Interview/Chamanlal Gupta

Minister of State for Civil Aviation Chamanlal Gupta, 67, represents the Jammu region in the Lok Sabha.

Born in Kalith, 40km from Jammu town, he has been a member of the Jammu & Kashmir assembly many times. From 1996, he has represented the region in Parliament.

In an exclusive interview with Sheela Bhatt, the Bharatiya Janata Party leader discusses the recent killing of Hindus in his home state. Excerpts:

On the recent massacre in Doda:

As we know, militancy in J&K has its roots in the 1971 [Indo-Pak] war. Pakistan had to face a shameful defeat then. Unhe Kashmir ki dhul chatni padi [They had to bite the dust in Kashmir]. To take revenge for that, Pakistan is now fighting a proxy war.

From 1988-89, Kashmir has been facing an armed struggle. We very well remember that at that time, outside Hindu homes militants had pasted pamphlets saying, 'Leave your young girls behind and run away from Kashmir.' As a result, around 400,000 Hindus left everything behind and came out of the state. Since then militants feel they have, in a way, liberated the Kashmir valley from Hindus.

Their next target is Doda district, where Hindus are in sizeable number. Their game plan is to drive the Hindus away from Jammu. There are no Hindus in the 15,000 square kilometres of the valley except those serving in government or the army. What they did in the valley, they are repeating in Doda. They have started similar massacres of Hindus in Jammu region.

In 1993, we saw how they killed bus passengers. On August 14, when the bus had just started from Kishtwar, it was stopped. Hindu passengers were separated from the rest. All of them were killed.

In another incident, a bride was travelling for the first time to her in-laws' house. The men belonging to her marriage party were killed. The bride was widowed on the day of her marriage.

The BJP has opposed such incidents. In 1992, we had contacted ex-servicemen of the district. We explained to them that these militants were coming from Sudan, Pakistan and Afghanistan with just six months of training. We asked some 500 army men to fight them.

They asked for weapons. We offered them 50 per cent subsidy. It was criticised in the media. BBC asked me, are you raising a private army? I said that was not our wish. It's the government's duty to protect the property and life of its citizens. But when a government fails to do so, it's all right to create a system for self-protection.

I am happy to share with you that in continuation of those efforts we formed the village defence committees. Today there are 1,500 such VDCs in Doda. Each committee consists of ten armed persons. Thanks to them, militants have not been able to stage a mass exodus of Hindus so far. Of course they have been successful in killing people.

People are in the mood to fight militancy. When the governor of Kashmir was present in Doda to mourn the killings, people told him in one voice, 'Give us weapons, give us training, employ our children and form squads, we will drive militants out of this state.'

The Indian Army comes from the plains, it's not that easy for them to fight a war at heights of 15,000 feet in difficult terrain, where there are not enough roads. But our children are used to the terrain and climbing.

There are some 16 meadows in Doda. In summer people go there with their cattle. They build small homes and live there. They get enough of grass for the cattle. In these places even if four people come with guns, they can kill people. In the recent killings, VDC members were [on lower ground].

However, Hindus are not thinking of migrating. They want to stay and fight it out. The people of Jammu will fight militancy at any cost. Militancy will be given a final burial in Jammu.

On his efforts to alert the home ministry:

On July 26, 2001, I had written to Home Minister L K Advani, highlighting the ground reality of Doda. I wrote, 'The recent killing of Amarnath yatris in Srinagar, followed by the massacre of eight people in Chergi village and the kidnapping and killing of four VDC members of Chatroo village, go on to prove that militants have taken on the system with renewed violence and if unchecked there can be further casualties in the near future.'

I wrote to Advani about the insufficient deployment of forces. During Kargil war, three battalions of the army were removed from Doda district. Till date there has been no replacement.

I had given many details of militancy. In the Marwah and Marmmal area, militants have established a strong base and are reportedly geared up for training camps. I had asked for 2,000 SPOs [special police officers] to be sanctioned for Doda to strengthen our VDCs. I had opined that our solutions are more ad hoc than foolproof. I also quoted Deepu, the survivor of the recent killings in Chergi.

Deepu had said, "There were no security forces around the upper stretches of Kishtwar where several hundred families shift in summer for grazing and to collect firewood. These include both pahadi [mountain] Hindus and Gujjar bakarwals [shepherds]."

These words of an uneducated youth proved tragically correct in less than a week's time. On August 4 when 15 people were massacred I phoned Advani who was in Bombay. I complained to him that no action was taken on my letter.

He said, "We are sitting in the Centre. We can only send forces from here. Already a 300,000-strong army is in the state. The deployment of army is the state government's prerogative."

In Kashmir, a unified command is working. A variety of forces are present there. The army, Border Security Force, Central Reserve Police Force, Special Task Force and local police too. The heads of these forces have formed a unified command, headed by the chief minister. Advani said we are providing as many forces as they want, but it's up to the state government to use the forces.

I told him that if you ignore the weaknesses of the state government, people won't forgive us. For the people of Jammu each life is precious. In the Chergi massacre people told us that when militants attacked the village they tied up the male members. The mother of one of the villagers rushed to the scene and fell at the feet of the militants. They shot her.

Another boy, who was tied up, told me that when his mother begged for his life, militants cut off her breast, which had fed him in childhood. This is the freedom struggle of [Pakistan President Pervez] Musharraf. He should be ashamed of it! Imagine the people who live in difficult areas. They don't have even a stick and still they are massacred.

The people of Jammu want [Prime Minister Atal Bihari] Vajpayee to take a hard line. They have not appreciated the ceasefire. Doda has seen the militants who are infiltrating the state. The residents know well that the militant who is walking all the way down from Afghanistan and Pakistan is part of a suicide squad. He is coming to die in Kashmir. How can we have a unilateral ceasefire with such people?

The only advantage I see from the ceasefire is that Kofi Annan said in Pakistan that the United Nations resolution on Kashmir has no relevance now. That's not a small achievement.

On Pakistan:

Pakistanis think Kashmir is a Muslim state. They are ignoring the fate of 12 crore [120 million] Muslims in India. See, many people in India forget that Kashmiris themselves have fought many wars against Pakistan -- in 1947, 1965 and 1971. Pakistan never succeeded.

After 1981-82 the situation worsened because of the misrule of [J&K Chief Minister Dr] Farooq Abdullah and his family. The Congress rule at the Centre added to the problem. In 1989, the youth of Kashmir picked up the gun in reaction to the rigging of the election. The Kashmiris who could fight Pakistan from 1947 to 1989 took to arms later! It was a complex process.

My opinion is that militancy has to be fought without any compromise and force should be used to curb it. We don't have any choice.

On Chief Minister Dr Farooq Abdullah:

There are black sheep in the state government. A section of the government machinery is in touch with militants and they are the people failing us. We are going to fight the Abdullah government in the election next year. He is a total failure. There is misrule and corruption. When he came to power he said he would finish militancy. So far 30,000 people have died. Those thousands of families have their own problems, he did nothing for them.

Militants have blown up or damaged at least 2,000 schools and college buildings. Farooq did nothing to improve it. Some 600 bridges need repair, he hasn't addressed the problem. Go to any corner of the state. People don't have water and electricity. Even today people face 14 hours of power cut a day. Unemployment is so widespread that the youth is forced to pick up the gun. The man is not addressing these problems and he starts ranting about autonomy. Who is asking for autonomy? He has no agenda to silence the guns.

Yes, I know I am sitting here with the same party at the Centre. What to do? What to say? It's called coalition politics! It's called situation ki majbooriyan [the helplessness of the situation]. What's the option before us? Shall we hand over power to the Congress? We only have eight out of 87 seats in the assembly. The National Conference has more than 60 seats. Elections are due in September 2002.

If you ask me, Farooq Abdullah has never faced an election. All the time he has been helped by the Centre to win. This is the first time he is feeling the pinch. He has understood that this time no one will allow him to rig the election. Now he is getting ready with slogans and talking about autonomy. He will try to blackmail the central government. Even if he puts up the autonomy bill before the election once again, it will be rejected by the Centre. It won't make any difference.

He has now understood the Centre is not going to tolerate him. He wants to restore the pre-1953 situation in Kashmir where they want a separate constitution, and he wants the chief minister to be called prime minister. So much water has run down the Jhelum after 1953. Who will tolerate all these? This exercise is futile.

Farooq is the most hated ruler in the state. The NC fought the maharaja of Kashmir's dynastic rule. Now what he is doing by promoting [his son and Union Minister] Omer Abdullah? The BJP in Kashmir opposes him and his party. People are not feeling good about it. NC was a strong party. But in the last decade their leaders have settled down in Jammu. They are not moving in the valley. They have left the people of the valley at the mercy of militants.

The [separatist All-Parties] Hurriyat [Conference] has also lost credibility. They had some clout when they took the support of militants. Now it's all flip-flop. They sometimes take the help of militants, sometimes they don't.

Hurriyat is untested in the Kashmir electoral [arena]. They are afraid of facing the people. Except for pushing Pakistan's agenda in the Valley, they have no role to play.

In the coming election Shabbir Shah is not at all going to be with the Hurriyat. Jammu's Gujjar bakarwals will also be against Farooq.

On India's Kashmir policy:

No one has knowledge of Kashmir as well as Prime Minister Vajpayee. In 1953, he had joined Shyama Prasad Mukherjee [founder of Bharatiya Jana Sangh] on his Kashmir tour. Mukherjee and Vajpayee were stopped from entering Kashmir on the Ravi bridge which connects Punjab and Kashmir.

We had gone to receive them. Mukherjee was asked whether he has a permit to enter Kashmir. He said I am an Indian and Member of Parliament and I don't need a permit to enter my own country. He was arrested. He then turned to Vajpayee and said, "Vajpayee, tell the countrymen I have entered Kashmir, though as a prisoner."

That was his last appearance. Mukherjee died in jail. BJP lost its tallest leader while fighting on Kashmir issue. How can Vajpayee be asked to compromise on Kashmir?

I feel the current spurt in violence is linked to the failure of the Agra talks.

I had a chance to talk to many people from Pakistan. They think Hindustan is tired and bleeding. So India will compromise. They came like baraatis [members of a wedding procession] and thought they will take along the bride [Kashmir] with them. Since they had to leave empty-handed they have resorted to their old practice of terrorism.

After the Agra summit the PM briefed us. He said Musharraf came to see him for 10 minutes, but stayed on for another 80. The PM says that if he had even once asked Musharraf to stay back, he would have spent one more night in Agra. Musharraf was in a mood to get something from India. He was desperate.

When Musharraf said Kashmir is the core issue, the PM told him to go to the core of the core issue. At that point Musharraf realised what India thinks. He said, "In that case if we had not attacked India in 1947, we would not have got even this much area. India is not even ready to part with this much."

Vajpayee told us he tried to explain to Musharraf India's position on Kashmir. No other politician has tried much.

Now we have put up the demand to the government that it should help us form the Doda Scouts along the lines of the Ladakh Scouts. They played a useful role in the Kargil war. We want three battalions to be trained. Our children will get employment and we will be able to fight militants.

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