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The Rediff Election Interview/Murli Deora

The Bombay South voter, or any voter for that matter, does not vote you for the work you have done, I have realised it. In 30 years I have seen that it helps, but not entirely, maybe 10 per cent that's all. Elections are won on the hawa, whose hawa comes. I defeated the same lady (Jayawantiben Mehta of the BJP) by 150,000 votes, the same lady defeated me by 22,000 votes. And in this 14 years she has changed her constituency twice, whereas I have not. I stood by the same.

There have been no allegations against me in my lifetime. My integrity and character, no one has ever said a line, I am president of my party here. But if the minorities did not want me, blame me for what is not my fault, what can I do?

You are one of the senior-most politicians in Bombay. How has politics changed as you have seen it?

It has deteriorated to a great extent. People, a lot of people come in today, they don't have any work, they don't have anything to do. So they join politics, for the power or glamour. Because they have nothing else to do, they are very insecure. I have not been in active politics for one and a half years, but I have been doing the same work, expanding my business. I believe a politician should not be a full time politician. He must have something else to do, or he must depend on his own income, otherwise how would he live?

When I was mayor of Bombay, I raised the corporators's salaries. Somebody said Murli Deora wants rich people in politics, I said no, I want poor people in politics, but it should be attractive for them. But they must be able to afford it. If you get Rs 3,000 a month, and your children are going to English schools where half your salary goes, how do you live? Better give them good salaries so good people will come. Give them other benefits.

You were quite young when you succeeded Rajni Patel at the helm of the Bombay Congress. How did that happen?

When Mrs Gandhi was out of power, I stood by her. I organised a lot of meetings for her, public meetings at Shivaji Park, at Taj Mahal hotel, the famous tea... She wanted me to be the president. My loyalty was rewarded? Maybe nobody else was there.

In politics, where does loyalty end and sycophancy begin?

I don't think I was ever a sycophant, I can tell you. I have told Mrs Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi that they were wrong. Many times. And I don't think they ever doubted my loyalty. You must have honest relations with your boss, then s/he will know that what you are saying is true. I don't think anybody likes sycophancy. And I can't be sycophantic because I don't live off politics. Maybe I will have a more peaceful life, travel more, make more money, my family will enjoy more if I am not in politics, I can tell you. If I am in politics, I am here with some conviction.

I tell you, this time, I was very upset, two weeks back, and I said I don't want to contest, I had enough of electoral politics, I can get a Rajya Sabha seat. And a boy and girl came to my office. Kya hua? Thanks to your computer training Mr Deora, we got a job. One girl came, she said sir, now I will not only get a job but I will get married also. Hamari jaath mein naukri hoti to shaadi hoti hai. I felt great, thrilled. It is because of me that this centre was set up, because of me that she got training, a job, I then said I want to stand. Maybe I will lose again, doesn't matter, I will stand.

Marzban Patrawalla was abusing you during the last election. Today he is your man. Are there lasting friends and enemies in politics?

I have nothing against anyone. I did not give him a ticket the last time so he thought of revenge. But he did not defeat me, his party did. There are lasting friends in politics. I don't think there are lasting enemies, but there are lasting friends. Lasting enemies are only in Maharashtra Pradesh Congress Committee, where Vasantdada Patil, Sharad Pawar, Shankarrao Chavan, I have seen them only fighting for 30 years, they never reconciled. You must not keep anything in your heart, I don't keep anything in my heart. Public life's greatest virtue is to influence people and win friends, to borrow Carnegie's line.

I ring up a senior bureaucrat in Delhi, I have never met him, never spoken to him, and he does my work. 'Yes, Mr Deora, I know about you' he tells me. So if your name is good, you are good. Integrity is there, character is upright, no problem. What you do, speaks for yourself in your career, 20 years, 30 years, for ever. I am realising it now that I am growing old, so whether I am in politics or not, in Parliament or not, I must do something that makes me happy. And it really makes me happy when I see that young girl, she gets a job, her mother is cleaning utensils, she has two younger children, she is able to able to get a job and look after the family. I really get a thrill out of this.

And I am going to continue doing that, Parliament or no Parliament. If I am an MP I can do more such work. My capacity to work becomes many more, I know that. The other day C Subramanian was telling me 'Murli, whether you are an MP or not you can do it.' No, it is not like that. According to my plans, I have so far raised Rs 85 million for my computer institute, suppose I was an MP by now I would have raised Rs 200 to Rs 250 million. I met the UN secretary general, he supported this programme, but if I am an MP I can give a better push.

Do people treat you differently now that you are not an MP?

Yes, a little bit. Not all, but a little bit they do. But people are kind to me. Because I am kind to them when they are out, so they are kind to me when I am out.

You have clung on to the BRCC post for 18 years, never moved on to Delhi, nothing. Why?

I don't want anything else. The other day Madhavrao Scindia asked Najma Heptulla in front of me in the car, 'Murli she served under you as general secretary in the BRCC?!' Najma Heptulla kept quiet, didn't say anything. I said, 'yes, under me.' Today she is the deputy chairman of the Rajya Sabha, wanted to be vice-president. It is like I am doing MA Pass, whereas she is still doing the school intern programme. No problem, no competition for me. I didn't want to go to Delhi.

During Rajiv Gandhi's time I could have gone to Delhi several times. Treasurer, minister, anytime. But I didn't want to, I wanted to live in Bombay.

It is said that the secret of your success is that you are the for your party.

I am a fund-raiser, but not on a big scale, just small scale, that's all. Anyway, where is the success? You yourself just said that I have remained BRCC president for 18 years! People who are junior to me are ministers in Delhi. But I am contented. What do you want in life? I want santosh, and the greatest thing is what you call not integrity, pramanikta, that 's very important, I don't know how you explain that. If I tell somebody I'll do something, they will believe that Murlibhai will do it.

I see most of the politicians, they know they are not going to do something, yet they promise. I see it with my own eyes. I will never do that. People are unhappy when they come for a ticket and I say I will not give them a ticket. They are very unhappy, I know that. One of them came here for a Lok Sabha ticket the other day, on Sharad Pawar's recommendation, but I told him no. He did not like it but I let him know the truth. If I say I will give and I don't later, he will become more inimical, saalah word diya tha phir jhoot bola.

Are the Lok Sabha seats from Bombay entirely your decision?

No, but I have a say, of course.

Has it so happened that your nominations have been changed by the high command?

Not so far, not in the last 20 years. If it does, I don't mind. I can correct myself if I have done something wrong. I am upset when I made a mistake and did not correct myself. But I am even more upset when I make a mistake and did not learn from it.

Are you very religious?

I would say yes. I believe, I go to temples, Siddhi Vinayak, Tirupati, but not so much. I believe, I pray everyday, I do yoga everyday, I believe in religion, I believe in god, but fundamentally I believe that those who believe in god must not lie, they must be truthful, they must do something for the poorer sections, not biksha, but do something to make them happy. Gandhiji said remove their tears.

Now I tell you, eyecamps. Last Sunday we had an eyecamp which Govinda attended. That woman I used to see every day, with one eye swollen, her eye is looking so clean. Very poor woman, she knows me, my mother-in-law. Her eyes were operated upon by Dr Ashok Saraf, what a great thrill she had, I am sure she is blessing me every day, because she knows that it was because of me that she could get it, you and I will need one month prior appointment with Ashok Saraf, and he went there to that chawl and operated on her, that's a great thing. Whether she votes me or not I don't mind, but I agree there I am selfish.

I think if I have done something for them they should vote me. Many people vote for me, many also don't vote for me. They don't vote, some of them told me. They say 'hum BJP ko vote dega, aap achha hain but Congress ko vote nahin.' What can I do, you should not be angry with them. They are your bosses, they are your customers. If they are doing something that is right.

Now I am filing a petition against cigarette smoking, tobacco. On a Marlboro packet it says cigarette smoking causes cancer, whereas we still say cigarette smoking is injurious to health. What political benefit am I going to get out of this? Nothing. But you must do something. But if one fellow stops smoking because of me, I think it has paid me. I have a full, five-member secretarial staff here, who do all this work, I am paying them from my pocket. I am not charging for anything, but I get great satisfaction, that's why I am in public life. You see this fax from Delhi, this is what they need to file the petition, who is going to pay me me for doing it?

So, are you the right man in the wrong party, like Vajpayee?

No, never. The Congress party is good, what is wrong with it? The people are angry now, so? Sometimes they are angry, sometimes they were happy with it also. If I gain because of the Congress party when I was an unknown, now I have to support it.

How important is fund-raising for a party? Is Sharad Pawar the best guy your party could get to talk about no funds?

Not important at all. We lost the election in 1977 when we were in power, we won the 1980 election when we were in the Opposition, did having or not having funds then matter? That is a myth. I believe that funds plays a very small, five per cent, role. When Mrs Gandhi broke from Nijalingappa and Co in 1969, there was a driver who was fielded against sitting minister Wankhede in Nagpur. We did not even have a symbol then, he defeated Wankhede by 27,000 votes. Hawa. uske paas gaadi to kya, bus bhi nahi thi. So elections are won on hawa, not on the work.

Very few seats are won in India on the work, on the record of the incumbent or the outgoing MP. As I said, if I defeat this lady, this time, there is nothing I have done that is bad for the constituency, there is nothing that she has done which is good for the constituency. So it's like what Dhirubhai Ambani told me, it is like swimming the English Channel every day.

At the height of their feud, you were friends with both Ramnath Goenka and Dhirubhai Ambani. How do you manage that?

I settled that feud, at my house. Both very close friends of mine. Ramnath Goenka used to tell me, I admire you that you did not leave Dhirubhai when V P Singh was going after his blood. I never leave, I always stand by my friends, wherever they are, rich or poor doesn't matter. When Ramnath Goenka was fighting a war with Rajiv Gandhi, he used to come to my house and play bridge every evening. You must stand by people, that's what humanity is all about.

The Election Interviews