The Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat Chat
'George Fernandes's present agenda is to communalise, politicise and
corrupt the armed forces'
After the Chat, Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat declared that he was disappointed by the quality of questions. "I expected people would ask me questions about the civil-military relationship and such issues. It does not appear they have read The Times of India, Frontline (publications which, incidentally had supported him in his battle with the Union government)," he said.
Since that evening the admiral has called Special Correspondent Syed Firdaus Ashraf, who set up the Chat, many times to inquire when the transcript would be uploaded. Unfortunately, due to a technical problem, the Chat transcript could not be uploaded until today, March 30, for which we are sorry.
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:24 IST)
Good evening I'm ready to take in your
questions.
Desh Bakht (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:16 IST)
Admiral Bhagwat: Thank you, sir, for exposing
the rot in our system. I am intrigued though by your allegations about
the defence minister. Why do you believe he is the villain of the
piece? Was he on the take?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:33 IST)
Desh Bakht: Mr Fernandes has a long track
record. He was organising the blowing up of railway lines which would
kill innocent people in what is now known as 'Baroda Dynamite Case'. He
also joined some others in calling the armed forces and the police to
revolt against a democratically elected government with the largest
majority since 1947 that of Mrs Indira Gandhi.
In 1977 when he became
minister of industries he brokered what is known as the BHEL-SIEMENS
deal for a consideration at the same time taking the people for a ride
by shouting for the expulsion of Coca-Cola.
People in the civil service
and in our intelligence agencies know him too well. His visits abroad,
his contacts in foreign countries, his relationships with certain
foreign agencies, receipt of foreign funds are all on record. If he was
in the United States he would have to have the confirmation of the
Senate and the Congress which he would never get.
Mr R K Hegde was on
the list as the defence minister of the present government but Mr
George Fernandes wanted only defence. Why did he only want to be the
defence minister? His present agenda is to communalise, politicise and
corrupt the armed forces -- The last instrumentality of the State. That
would lead to a break-up through fractionalisation of the armed forces.
As a former defence minister told me in August to communalise the armed
forces is the gravest crime. We would then be heading for a
Yugoslavia-Bosnia situation. I was not going to permit it, as the
President of the Republic himself had directed that we maintain the
secular character of the armed forces which is a must for maintaining
the unity and integrity of our beloved country. Where all citizens are
equal before the law and in society. I hope that answers your question.
sandeepo (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:31 IST)
Sir, do you believe that Admiral S L Nanda
and arms agents like him have such control over the defence ministry
that they engineered the dismissal of the CONS?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:35 IST)
SandeepO: It is not only a matter of belief
It has been proved and demonstrated through my dismissal. However,
Admiral Nanda is only one of the many who are subverting the
officers of the armed forces, having already had great access to other
elements in the government.
Komitet (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:29 IST)
Sir: Do you think it was correct for the
prime minister to have socialised with Vice-Admiral Harjinder Singh two
days after your dismissal? What message was he trying to convey to the
Indian people?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:39 IST)
Komitet: You have answered the question
yourself. A prime minister who does not find the time to visit the
fleet at sea spends a new year's eve with an officer who has earned
undying notoriety because they are birds of the same communal feather.
H Singh (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:38 IST)
Don't you think your 1990 petition was
responsible for wrecking your case this time? Do you regret filing that
petition?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:46 IST)
H Singh: Let me clarify again the ministry
of defence had recommended my appointment to the ACC as the fleet
commander. Based on the relevant criteria of performance in sea
commands. Admiral Nadkarni, the then CNS, had fraudulently replaced my annual confidential report from August 1988 to August 1989 in collusion with Vice-Admiral Jain. This was proved by inquiries ordered by the ministry of defence and through the Intelligence Bureau and confirmed by the ministry of law, secretary Mr Rao, Mr Vohra and Mr Nambiar were in the ministry of
defence.
As alleged by me in the petition and a CBI enquiry into assets
disproportionate to known sources of income, Admiral Nadkarni had to pay
income tax as the then principal secretary Mr B G Deshmukh had
particularly requested me to withdraw the case as surely I did not want
to see Admiral Nadkarni in jail after prosecution under the criminal
laws. Some senior officers in the Navy had become corrupted and someone had to blow the whistle. Which I did. I hope your conscience would be similarly inclined.
Desh Bakht (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:28 IST)
You are fortunate, unlike many of us, to have
a lawyer for a wife, yet you did not take the government to court over
your dismissal. This leads to two conclusions: One, that you felt a
case against your dismissal could not be sustained in court, or two,
because you were threatened with exposure by the government. What is
true?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:48 IST)
Desh Bhakt: Both are untrue. I have tested
the response of the media and the people it has been overwhelming to
receive such love and respect from far corners of our country. From the
highest to the lowest.
The matter is now before Parliament. Let me tell you I will not allow the lies of this government to pass. They will have to answer for the fraud that they have played. And the insult they have heaped on their armed forces and the uniform. All my options remain open.
Komitet (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:45 IST)
Do you have any first hand experiences of
communalism among the prime minister and home minister?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:53 IST)
Komitet: That is a part of the record if
you care to read it. They belong to the same outfit which assassinated
the father of the nation Mahatma Gandhi. In fact, these organisations were the creation of the British government as they were the counterpart to the Muslim League.
While our freedom fighters were inside jail from 1942 these people
spread the communal poison along with the Muslim Leaguers. You think that in any civilised country a place of worship would be destroyed in 1992? Their agenda is to take us to the Dark Ages. Please do read all the books and their records of the reports of the communal riots in the country rendered by distinguished judges of our high courts, Supreme Court, including the Srikrishna Commission Report and the Madon Commission
Report. Why are those indicted having a free run and even getting
promoted?
sandeepo (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:44 IST)
The Pioneer reports of last week have
revealed that officers loyal to you were allowed to changed their
service records. Is that true?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:56 IST)
Sanpeeo: Pioneer has a fantastic circulation of Seven Thousand copies. It is owned by Pramod Mahajan.
He is Gobbels India Incorporated as the minister of information &
broadcasting. They think that a lie repeated a thousand times will pass as the
truth. The Sangh Parivar excels at this game.
Indian (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:51 IST)
Admiral Bhagwat: I have a strong
reason for NOT liking the manner in which you handled your dismissal.
Regardless of the fairness or unfairness of your dismissal, I feel that
YOU, as an OFFICER of the armed forces, should NOT have voiced your
(might I think political) opinions in public.
This will lead to a fracturing of the armed forces, even a perception of which is enough to give a fillip to our enemies. It will also lead to politicisation of
our armed forces -- something that we have a proud record of NOT having
in our 50 year Independent history. Do you really think that, OTHER
than your PERSONAL reputation, there has been ANYTHING positive in this
ENTIRE affair?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:0 IST)
Indian: The truth must be told and it
doesn't hurt or harm as lies and untruths do. I owe a duty to every
citizen of this country. As a very senior ICS officer Mr P C Mathews
told me last week, my dismissal was an act of politics. If
that is so, you should try and understand what my stand has been both
on record with the government and with the Supreme Commander of the
Armed Forces and the Public.
At this moment it is necessary to alert all citizens of their designs and the gameplan that lay behind this dismissal, totally violative of the rule of law and the Constitution. The government has not been able to put forth any reason which would be believed by the people of the country. Its credibility lies in tatters.
Podgy (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:56 IST)
Admiral: You speak as if you are a latter day
incarnation of Snow White, but it not true that you and Niloufer were
investigated by RAW for your Soviet links, especially after both of you
paid an unscheduled visit to the chief justice of the Soviet supreme
court in 1982?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:5 IST)
Podgy: The ambassador of India Shri Vishnu
Ahuja asked us to go and meet not only the chief justice of the supreme
Court of the USSR in 1982 but also the minister of law. My wife was the
secretary of the Indian Association of Lawyers whose president was
former chief justice of India Shri P N Bhagwat. To my knowledge the RAW
was not excited as you presume.
Meeting any person in the legal field
including Lord Denning when he came to Bombay was also our pleasure.
For your information Mrs Indira Gandhi, the then prime minister of India,
had hosted the Soviet chief justice and his delegation to lunch in New
Delhi where my wife was also present. I hope you are not an admirer of
Senator McCarthy and have read all he did with respect to what he
called 'UnAmerican Activities'.
nadya (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:0 IST)
I will disagree there. Do you think the
Pioneer reporters do what the top boss says. Does that mean the owners
of Rediff have a deal with you. No, that is not true
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:6 IST)
Nadya: While we are still a democracy you
have a right to your opinions.
Rahil (Fri Mar 5 1999 7:59 IST)
ADMIRAL BHAGWAT: SINCE YOU ARE SO MUCH ANTI-BJP. DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE COMMUNALISED OUR ARMY? I MEAN, IS the ARMY COMMUNAL TODAY AND THE REASON YOU WERE SACKED BECAUSE YOU WERE TRYING TO PROMOTE SECULARISM?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:8 IST)
Rahil: The Army is hopefully not communal
and I hope it will never be. You are absolutely right, this government
couldn't even tolerate a secular naval chief who matters little in the
balance of internal power politics.
sandeepo (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:1 IST)
Has any political party approached you? Also,
I am intrigued by the Congress party's silence on the matter after the
initial comments. How do you account for that?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:9 IST)
SandeepO: I'm a citizen and do not belong
to any political party but as a chief it was my job to be politically
aware.
A K Rao (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:8 IST)
Both Mrs Niloufer and you have said your
dismissal did not come as a shock to you. Yet people who saw you that
evening say you looked like a man who had experienced disaster. As no
doubt you had. Did you expect the government to go that far?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:11 IST)
A K Rao: Can you name anyone who saw me? We had called on the President and I was perfectly calm and cool as a soldier ought to be even if there has been a Pearl Habour. We are trained to weather the storms. My school's motto is "Never Give In' -- Lawrence School, Sanawar.
Desh Drohi (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:4 IST)
Admiral Bhagwat: You said that The Pioneer is communal. What about and does not sell more than 7,000
copies. What about India's most respected magazine, India Today. Log in to their site, www.india-today.com. And they have exposed your
hypocrisy.. Now, do you have an answer for that? :) :) :)
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:13 IST)
Desh Drohi: For further details please
find out more about Prabhu Chawla the fixer and George Fernandes the
de facto No 2 in the Cabinet according to Prabhu Chawla. What is their common interest?
Podgy (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:10 IST)
People in the navy say you created a mood of
fear, where people loyal to you spied on those who did not care much for you. One manifestation of that was your threatening then Vice-Admiral Sushil Kumar with a court martial. Do you deny that you were autocratic? Do you denied that you threatened Admiral S Kumar with a court martial?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:16 IST)
Podgy: A chief is not in a popularity
contest. Like Admiral Sir Jack Fisher who was much more stricter, I had
to get the Navy moving from being a cosy club to a fighting service.
There could be no compromise on that. As has been reported in the media
and I have the correspondence between Sushil Kumar and the CNS there
was no threatening of a senior colleague by a court martial on the date
that this was alleged by George Fernandes. I was in Bangladesh and at
that time the guest at a reception in my honour by our high commissioner
in Dhaka.
H Singh (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:12 IST)
Admiral: Is it not true that George Fernandes calls you a security risk because of your proximity to the Russians? Unfortunately, he cannot be explicit because it may affect our association with the Russians.
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:17 IST)
H Singh: I hope George Fernandes will make
up his mind. At the moment he is running scared and making all kinds of
stories.
Sandhya Gude (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:10 IST)
Admiral Bhagwat: Since you are talking about
the army being hopefully not communal. Do you think other institutions like
the judiciary and bureaucracy have also turned communal?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:19 IST)
Sandhya Gude: Communal thinking
is like a poison. There is much to worry about a secular India
because without it we will break up.
Ragini (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:14 IST)
Admiral: Enough of political and navy
questions. What are your other interests? I mean do you read politics
and economics?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:19 IST)
Ragini: International Economics, History,
and developmental economics.
Desh Bakht (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:9 IST)
Admiral: Why have you not been able to
translate the image of a martyr to a figure of resistance against this
government? One former CONS told me that you would be a 15 day wonder
as indeed you were.
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:21 IST)
Desh Bhakt: I'm not going about making
these images, it is for our people to assess me and my role in
promoting national security over four decades. Watch out the wonder is still ticking.
Sheila Kushe (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:19 IST)
Admiral Bhagwat: Do you think our navy
suffered a setback after the disintegration of the Soviet Union?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:24 IST)
Sheila: We did go through a small bad
patch. We are fundamentally an indigenous Navy. Please visit INS Delhi.
We have strong warship design teams, an excellent systems integration
and software organisation. The challenge is how to accelerate our pace
of indigensation. Particularly to put the 30 year submarine building
plan of the Navy into operation. We need your support.
Rehman (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:21 IST)
Admiral Bhagwat: Do you think Muslims are
safe in this country considering the fact that these BJP guys are
making our lives miserable in all ways?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:26 IST)
Rehman: All of us have to modernise, study
well, not be afraid, stand up as equal citizens of this great country.
These people are hopefully a temporary phenomena and India will assert
itself. Our civilisational values preclude such narrow minded people but
it won't happen automatically. All of us who believe in India will have
to join hands. Then no force can overcome our unity. God Bless you.
Prasad Kulkarni (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:25 IST)
Admiral: How your children have taken your
dismissal? I mean your son is in the Indian Navy, he must be feeling
embarrassed all the time, isn't it?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:28 IST)
Prasad Kulkarni : My son is a
submariner. He is a tough boy and will always stand up for the truth.
The majority of officers and men in the armed forces are proud of what
I have stood for. So are, I believe, the majority of our citizens.
Jeevan (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:27 IST)
Admiral Bhagwat: If you say the Navy is with
you. Why didn't they revolt against the government? Since they didn't
do it, what do you have to say?
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:30 IST)
Jeevan: We are a disciplined service.
Please read my messages to the Navy of 30th December. The country is
above the government. We are not a trade union, we show our love,
respect and loyalty to our chief in a very different way which you
would have understood if you had been wearing the uniform.
Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat (Fri Mar 5 1999 8:35 IST)
I was happy to be with you on this
programme. The armed forces are a unique institution with a unique value
system and ethos. Please do continue your interest in support of the
armed forces and if I may request you widen your reading and do read
books about civil military relations. The biographies of great
military leaders and what makes for a progressive democratic secular
society and nation. We will all win if we go forward together and not
try to divide our people. We have so much to do, to catch up with the rest of the
world. We have to be competitive, otherwise we will de facto be enslaved again. Thank you.
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